The Veil Debate

[Louis P. Burns aka Lugh]

This has become a huge talking point all over Europe.

Very true Diesel dude. I just heard two men chatting about it over in the John Street Chippy...

In my opinion the women who wear the veil have been indoctrainated, the veil I Believe was used by the Sultan to keep other men from lusting after his Huge hareem of ladies and I suppose that living in a dusty hot and dry climate the veil would offer excellent protection to the wearer from the adverse elements.

Fair point man. But it's not as if it's necessary here though. If it is a historical piece of dresswear then maybe it should be donned on special occasions within their culture.

But it sends out TOTALY the wrong signals. What a woman wearing a veil is basically saying is that men are so anamilastic and lustful that the sight of a womans face is enough to bring about impure thoughts into our heads and could lead us to commit adultery. I do not believe for one second that anyone seriously considers the face to be an visualy erotic part of the anatomy. (perhaps if its eating a flake but that a whole diferent kettle of onions)

I disagree mate. Much as I'm tuned slightly differently from the average male, I find a woman's face something truly beautiful to look upon. The softness of her skin, the curve of her chin, her eyes, lips... All delightful in most cases. Shove a flake in her gob and I'd run a mile... Mind you, if Pink Floyd's; Great Gig In The Sky was playing in the background I'd stick around... I know, I know. I'm a hypocrite...

If we bring the veil wearing to its extreme conclusion then imagine a world where we were all veiled. We would never really know anyone and sales of foundation lipgloss and rouge would plummet.

Nail firmly on head dude... Revlon would go under and there would be a civil war...

A typical coversation from such times

"you know wee sammy?"
"naw"
"sure you do, wears the blue veil with the orange trim"
"Oh... yeah that sammy, what about him?"
"He got his hair cut, I think"
"did he now, the little devil"

Sammy always was a non-conformist. Feckin' blue and orange..! In October ..!

He's clearly lost the feckin' plot.

Ev'rybody's wearing green with purple this month...

[Diesel Engine]

I disagree mate. Much as I'm tuned slightly differently from the average male, I find a woman's face something truly beautiful to look upon. The softness of her skin, the curve of her chin, her eyes, lips... All delightful in most cases. Shove a flake in her gob and I'd run a mile... Mind you, if Pink Floyd's; Great Gig In The Sky was playing in the background I'd stick around... I know, I know. I'm a hypocrite....

You missunderstand me Lugh. Of course I find womens faces beautiful, however, I do NOT find them EROTIC or SHAMEFUl or PRIVATE. They are not something that should be hidden from view from all men, apart from the womens Husband.
To make the face, which communicates more than half of our emotions non verbally, into something that should be hidden demeans us all, and makes true communication and any chance of making a real connection with someone very difficult.

edited some horrendous typos

[Catherine Edmunds]

Ultimately, this is not about religion at all. It's gender politics, control, and fear. It's about men being afraid of letting women communicate, of letting them be part of society. It's about men trying to keep absolute control over 'their' women. Prevent them communicating, and you prevent their brains developing, you prevent them understanding how much you are controlling them, imprisoning them.

Except of course you don't. The tide is turning. You can hide their faces but you can't quell their spirit. Watch out, guys...

[spacecadet]

It's gender politics, control, and fear.

Here, here. That's exactly what it is.

Watch out, guys.

Easy Tiger! You're preaching to the (almost) converted here.

[Louis P. Burns aka Lugh]

Ultimately, this is not about religion at all. It's gender politics, control, and fear. It's about men being afraid of letting women communicate, of letting them be part of society. It's about men trying to keep absolute control over 'their' women. Prevent them communicating, and you prevent their brains developing, you prevent them understanding how much you are controlling them, imprisoning them.

100% right Delph mate. It's infuriating that this situation is being encouraged because it belittles every positive step taken in the name of civil liberties and freedom of expression/speech/thought and it is gender politics of the most ugly kind.

I'm livid at Channel 4's position on this too. In the space of 16 hours they've become a joke in my opinion. Dickheads...

The UK, Ireland and Europe is made up of peoples from all over the world. Many of whom came here to get away from dogmatic cultures or horrific wars. For a few to demand what they see as a right to drag us all into their backward thinking notions is not on. Not on at all...

Except of course you don't. The tide is turning. You can hide their faces but you can't quell their spirit. Watch out, guys...

Be loud and be proud Delph ...

[Louis P. Burns aka Lugh]

You missunderstand me Lugh. Of course I find womens faces beautiful, however, I do NOT find them EROTIC or SHAMEFUl or PRIVATE. They are not something that should be hidden from view from all men, apart from the womens Husband.
To make the face, which communicates more than half of our emotions non verbally, into something that should be hidden demeans us all, and makes true communication and any chance of making a real connection with someone very difficult.

I possibly didn't pick up on your point clearly Diesel mate. I agree with you fully. The face is a point of reference and a major one at that in human communication. It could be argued against and it could even be said that we communicate quite adequately here with words only, but in reality, facial expressions, eye contact, even perspiration all work as language for humanity.

[Louis P. Burns aka Lugh]

Another point worth exploring is this whole situation where Police in Greater Manchester are being asked to not carry out arrests of known criminals in Muslim communities during Ramadan. This is going to blow up into a major dispute in the UK and there is going to be violence.

It will be interesting to see if the few extremist Muslims (please note - not all Muslims) who wish to have us all grubbing in the mud before their notion of a god will show respect for Christians (not that I care too much about them either) and hold off from fighting during their holy time of Christmas. Something tells me the ignorant fools wont. Will the Police arrest them for culturalist bigotry? Fiver says they don't...

[spacecadet]

?

[Louis P. Burns aka Lugh]

I've just noticed that our work Christmas party is being arranged by the Asian guys in the office. So I reckon I'll be OK.

Dave, can you please edit / remove that last message mate? It's nothing personal and I'm not angry at you, but Asian people or people from Asian backgrounds may take offence at it. There is a massive difference between a few fanatics from one sect of a faith and an entire race of people.

Thanks...

[spacecadet]

Post removed.

I think you summed up the veil debate quite nicely there.

[Louis P. Burns aka Lugh]

Post removed.

I don't know if you're angry at me for this Dave. Realistically though, there are muppets* out there, as well you know, who revel in fucking other people's work (including online communities and forums like this one) up.

Do you want me to remove my initial request to you as well? It would seem silly to have me quoting you when your message no longer exists.

I think you summed up the veil debate quite nicely there.

Can you clarify please Dave?

*Eline could be lurking and being a complete muppet for no other reason than that she is one...

[spacecadet]

That such a comment could make you stop and worry sums up the debate about attitudes. I can't see why you're so touchy.

What I said in the thread is nothing I wouldn't say in front of the Asian guys at work, indeed the irony of the situation re: christmas party has already been pointed out to them.

I work in a room that's 1/3rd Asian, 1/3 Black, 1/3 White. It's all really well integrated. There's no problems and noone gets touchy about anything.

[Louis P. Burns aka Lugh]

That such a comment could make you stop and worry sums up the debate about attitudes. I can't see why you're so touchy.

What I said in the thread is nothing I wouldn't say in front of the Asian guys at work, indeed the irony of the situation re: christmas party has already been pointed out to them.

I work in a room that's 1/3rd Asian, 1/3 Black, 1/3 White. It's all really well integrated. There's no problems and noone gets touchy about anything.

Firstly Dave, I apologise unreservedly for this situation. Perhaps I am worrying unnecessarily but once bitten twice shy and all that. If you read the small print in my last message you'll see why I refer to Eline. I'm sure you remember how she caused me to lose the original Sensitize on MSN. Eline and a few other complete imbeciles, one in particular called Sarah Holmes aka Fly, took great pleasure in reporting websites that offended them and worked to destroy talented people's work. It's why I never let up once in my fight with the Dome's management, because they condoned and frequently encouraged their pathetic existences.

You occasionally post messages referring to riots in Northern Ireland. I could take offence at that but choose to joke back with you mostly. It is fucking laughable, the whole situation over here. Others would take offence further and some of that can spill over into hate campaigns and pointless conflict.

I'm tired fighting to defend what is at the end of the day an environment for creative people to work together. So yes, I can be a little touchy at times.., but can you blame me?

I'm typing all of this and it now seems useless. We're more than likely going to remove these last few messages so that the thread can continue... Yes, this is a clear example of how people are being herded towards censorship / self-censorship...

Thanks and I am sorry Dave...

[spacecadet]

Yes, this is a clear example of how people are being herded towards censorship / self-censorship...

I was trying to draw that conclusion but I most certainly wasn't having a dig. And I am really, really sorry about the whole Northern Ireland trouble thing but it does sort of crack me up in that naive/confused sort of way, but please rest assured that it has to be folk like the Orangemen who make we whoop with laughter the most. (Feck me, those hats!)

Sorry. There I go again.

I can't help it.

The moment I stop pointing and laughing is the moment I realise just how pointless humanity is and I start wishing for that asteroid to find us. In the meantime while we're waiting for extinction if I can manage to hold a mirror up to a situation every now and then and make people think, even through the red haze of anger, then I feel I must do so.

It is my density.

[Louis P. Burns aka Lugh]

Yes, this is a clear example of how people are being herded towards censorship / self-censorship...

I was trying to draw that conclusion but I most certainly wasn't having a dig. And I am really, really sorry about the whole Northern Ireland trouble thing but it does sort of crack me up in that naive/confused sort of way, but please rest assured that it has to be folk like the Orangemen who make we whoop with laughter the most. (Feck me, those hats!)

Sorry. There I go again.

I can't help it.

The moment I stop pointing and laughing is the moment I realise just how pointless humanity is and I start wishing for that asteroid to find us. In the meantime while we're waiting for extinction if I can manage to hold a mirror up to a situation every now and then and make people think, even through the red haze of anger, then I feel I must do so.

It is my density.

Right. I've had a chance to mull this one over and in all reality Dave, I was wrong to make my request earlier. It was a bout of paranoia based on past experiences with Eline, Fraser Duncan (or Numb Nuts as I've come to call him), Sarah Holmes, Suzi Pritchard and a few other brainless fuckwits who accommodated them.

If you are willing to, you can copy and paste from my message that initially quoted and censored you and edit your original post back to how it was.

Oh and Orangemen... They're not right in the head mate. It's refreshing to hear a British (and I assume English) person say they too whoop with laughter at them and their hats.