The Veil Debate

[the_leander]

Sorry, but banning something because a small percentage of nutbars use it as an excuse to exert control over others is a waste of time, they'll just find something else to use in it's place and you'll still have a problem with people going off their nuts because they have somehow been offended.

I had this discussion with Deacon once, went on for a while, he was of the same opinion as you, but ultimately, as much as he'd love to see religion banned, even he had to concede that the morons that pull this sort of crap would simply carry on under another banner.

I would also say this, attempting to ban religion would imediately turn the otherwise benign majority into something altogether more terrifying. I'm all for personal freedom myself, and banning everyone from practicing their beliefs because a handful take it too damned far will be counterproductive.

[spacecadet]

hahahahhahaha - g'wan ya rascal ...

Laughing my head off here mate.

Did you throw any bricks and were you all singing this?

Hyperlink to Google's Youtube;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28TeUbYvXS0

(sorry to highjack the thread....)

I wrote a skit of this called "Ghost Train" as part of my fake Rockumentary about a Terry Hall type Coventry Ska musician. It was about the decline of the buffet service on the 7:20 from Coventry to Birmingham N.E.C.. It is part of a series I'm trying to finish about made up Music Heros.

I've written two of them and need ideas for another 2 at least. One is about Terry Kitchen - Ska legend (formerly the front man of "Johnnie Lambretta and the Love Handles"). The other is about Ogden Kapow - front man of the 70's psychadelic legends "The Fathers of Convention". If you can think of another couple of music legends/groups/movements that require a thorough p**s take then shout them up.

As for veils, to get back on the subject, my real opinion is I don't care less one way or the other. All these arguments have a hidden subtext which is "Bloody hell! The Sand n*ggers are taking over! I wish we could throw the f**kers out of the country but I daren't say it out loud because I don't want to be thought of as a racist by the girls at the W.I./the blokes at the football club (delete as applicable)".

This is all down to resentment from the "indiginous" population who feel threatened by the culture of Islam. Is it racism?

[Louis P. Burns aka Lugh]

Sorry, but banning something because a small percentage of nutbars use it as an excuse to exert control over others is a waste of time, they'll just find something else to use in it's place and you'll still have a problem with people going off their nuts because they have somehow been offended.

I had this discussion with Deacon once, went on for a while, he was of the same opinion as you, but ultimately, as much as he'd love to see religion banned, even he had to concede that the morons that pull this sort of crap would simply carry on under another banner.

I would also say this, attempting to ban religion would imediately turn the otherwise benign majority into something altogether more terrifying. I'm all for personal freedom myself, and banning everyone from practicing their beliefs because a handful take it too damned far will be counterproductive.

What if we catagorise religions though? The way they did with drugs e.g;

Mild Christianity - A faith practiced by many people. Some debate over its' longterm use has been raised but side-effects are mild - ranging from; tea drinking from cups and saucers with small biscuits to halitosis and a desire to wear loafers.

Moderate Christianity - A faith that requires regular attendance at church / chapel and seeks approval from men/women dressed in long black costumes for most activities.

Extreme Christianity - A faith that encourages/endorses the burning of bisexuals/gays/lesbians, belief that there's an afterlife and a deity that punishes any act carried out by its mortal following in the name of another god. Witches/Wizards or anyone wearing clothes that have more than two colours are also candidates for burning. This faith fully accepts that it's ok to go to war and butcher, kill or maim anyone of a different faith and in the name of their god.

Mild Islamism - A faith that teaches universal understanding but shuns modern thinking in many instances. Mostly practiced by Muslims, although many non-Muslims see sense in some of its doctrines.

Moderate Islamism - A faith that teaches seperatism and has its roots in poverty stricken Middle Eastern countries. This faith allows interactions with other faiths and has strict guidelines for how women should conduct themselves in public.

Extreme Islamism - A faith that condones the murder or bisexuals/gays/lesbians or artists who depict their deity as extremist. They believe and openly endorse subjugation of women, agree that strapping explosives to themselves and blowing anyone who argues with them up, including themselves, is a sure fire way of getting into an afterlife known as Paradise.

This faith can have side-effects that are long-lasting and irreversible. Being stoned to death is one such side-effect and as yet there are no cures. Other side-effects include shiny knees from grovelling to a fairytale five times a day and being paid for it if this practice is carried out during working hours, wearing clothing that causes offence to anyone with half an ounce of sense, cursing everyone else's god and claiming they're the victims of discrimination when asked to toe-the-line in other people's countries.

Recently there has been an up-surge in demands that criminals in their communities throughout the Greater Manchester Policing area be allowed to carry on about their business without fear of arrest during their holy month of Ramadan. Failure by the Police to do their job while not respecting this may bear the cost of nationwide violence from these extremists.

Hindism - A faith that worships cows and encourages vegetarianism. Side-effects; wind and a love of Ravi Shankar - sitar player.

Buddhism - A philosophy more than a faith. It teaches understanding of the times one is living in as part of a bigger concept. Mild, hardly any side-effects.

Paganism - Not a faith so much but an awareness of one's place in nature.

Agnosticism - A way of life that respects other people's faiths but will not bow down to any god. They believe they will find out the truth, if there is an afterlife. Side-effects; Many become teachers or musicians. A few have entered politics but after a small period of time in office they become inclined to follow everyone else's faith and confuse the shit outta their voters. May cause blinding headaches in people around them if a political path is followed. Mostly harmless.

Atheism - Disbelief in anything unless proven. Rapidly becoming the most popular belief in Ireland, Europe and the UK. Side-effects; Listening to Morrissey loudly and sneering at all of the above for being backward thinking and non-progressive...

[Louis P. Burns aka Lugh]

Is it racism?

Dave, I will attempt to answer the rest of your post later mate. As for your question about racism. I would say no, it is not racism at all.

Racism is when there is unjustified / unreasonable intolerance for whole groups of people from a different ethnic background to your own. It isn't racist to speak out against a faith that does damage or negatively affects the society you have grown up in or all the hard-fought for human rights / liberties people have died for or demonstrations have campaigned for...

[the_leander]

What if we catagorise religions though, the way they did with drugs e.g;

....

I knew I should have kept shtum when I first read through this topic and saw the direction it was taking.

[Louis P. Burns aka Lugh]

...

[spacecadet]

So you're saying that, say, Radical Islam is like crack cocaine, Paganism is like magic mushrooms (just been upgraded from a class C), Mild christianity is Mary-Jane (class C).

I suppose radical christianity is like Amphetamines (cheap to get into, difficult to give up).

You may be on to a comic monologue here. Got any other drug=religion ideas?

[spacecadet]

Buddhism=LSD perhaps?
Agnosticism=Beer and fags

[spacecadet]

Better still make all religious types take drugs then Opiates really could be "the opiates of the masses".

Keep it coming. This could work.

[Louis P. Burns aka Lugh]

So you're saying that, say, Radical Islam is like crack cocaine, Paganism is like magic mushrooms (just been upgraded from a class C), Mild christianity is Mary-Jane (class C).

I suppose radical christianity is like Amphetamines (cheap to get into, difficult to give up).

You may be on to a comic monologue here. Got any other drug=religion ideas?

Buddhism=LSD perhaps?
Agnosticism=Beer and fags

Better still make all religious types take drugs then Opiates really could be "the opiates of the masses".

Keep it coming. This could work.

Yes to all of the above but I do however foresee certain problems with all of this. I have tried a few times to smoke priests and inject rabbi's. It can't be done. Their legs dangle out of both spliff and injected arms. It can be embarrassing. Buying jumpers is nigh on impossible and I believe it might also be an arrestable offence in Belfast, Derry, Dublin, Glasgow, Leeds and Manchester.

Then of course there's the difficulty of cramming reverend ministers into sugar-cubes. That will get you arrested and most probably dragged up on terrorist charges. I haven't dabbled with Islamists yet. Well, that's not strictly true. I did lick the face of an extreme Islamist once because a mate told me it would give me a powerful but mellow high that lasted for days.

This wasn't the case.

Instead, I ended up reciting the Qaran to a flock of pigeons in an Ulsterbus depot for three months in Armagh while they happily ate cigarette butts and encouraged me. Bastards..! (Never preach to pigeons).

Actually, if the truth be told, I'd be worried about dabbling at length with extreme Islamists. It could be addictive. Not enough research has been carried out yet and I refuse to become a guinea pig for anyone...

[spacecadet]

I believe it might also be an arrestable offence in Belfast, Derry, Dublin, Glasgow, Leeds and Manchester.

Not quite right, Lugh. Although arrestable in Belfast, Derry and Dublin it's seen as acceptable socially in Glasgow and Leeds and in Manchester it is now compulsory.

Then of course there's the difficulty of cramming reverend ministers into sugar-cubes.

This will be the Buddhist priests. You just wait until the bad ones are reincarnated as liberty cap.

And as for that rubbish excuse about licking the face of fundamental Muslims. The Judge might have bought that crap but we ain't.

[spacecadet]

We've drifted off topic. Sorry.

[Louis P. Burns aka Lugh]

Not quite right, Lugh. Although arrestable in Belfast, Derry and Dublin it's seen as acceptable socially in Glasgow and Leeds and in Manchester it is now compulsory.

Ah well then. Ya can't argue with progress...

This will be the Buddhist priests. You just wait until the bad ones are reincarnated as liberty cap.

See, that's where things are different between England and Ireland mate. Liberty caps grow profusely here in Derry and it's an annual outing to pick the lil divils. All of them are devout Buddhists by the way. It's actually quite endearing, seeing them swaying in the breeze, glistening in the morning dew. They're absolutely content and don't even complain when we yank them out of the soil, wrap them in newspaper, dry them on radiators and bung them into teapots. Clearly they know something Zen and have no real worries...

And as for that rubbish excuse about licking the face of fundamental Muslims. The Judge might have bought that crap but we ain't.

Well, as long as 'The Beak's' happy, where's the problem? Eh? Eh..?

We've drifted off topic. Sorry.

I started it dude ...

Are you apolo..?

Oh Christ Dave..! You haven't dropped a few Catholic Guilt Trips..! Oh dear, oh dear....

[Louis P. Burns aka Lugh]

Well, bollocks to democracy then. During the Dispatches debate earlier tonight the chance to see the cartoons that offended Muslims last year was given. People in the audience were asked to vote on whether they should show these cartoons in the studio and to the home audiences. 69% said they were in favour of seeing them.

Then Jon Snow produced a purple envelope from his pocket and read some text that said Channel 4 would not show them because they could cause further offence. Didn't Channel 4 set out in its early days to be the broadcasting station that allowed freedom of speech and courted controversy? What is going on?

Everyone who isn't from the Muslim faith should be very alarmed by this. It's positive discrimination and it's a crime...

[Diesel Engine]

This has become a huge talking point all over Europe.
In my opinion the women who wear the veil have been indoctrainated, the veil I Believe was used by the Sultan to keep other men from lusting after his Huge hareem of ladies and I suppose that living in a dusty hot and dry climate the veil would offer excellent protection to the wearer from the adverse elements.
But it sends out TOTALY the wrong signals. What a woman wearing a veil is basically saying is that men are so anamilastic and lustful that the sight of a womans face is enough to bring about impure thoughts into our heads and could lead us to commit adultery. I do not believe for one second that anyone seriously considers the face to be an visualy erotic part of the anatomy. (perhaps if its eating a flake but that a whole diferent kettle of onions)
If we bring the veil wearing to its extreme conclusion then imagine a world where we were all veiled. We would never really know anyone and sales of foundation lipgloss and rouge would plummet.
A typical coversation from such times

"you know wee sammy?"
"naw"
"sure you do, wears the blue veil with the orange trim"
"Oh... yeah that sammy, what about him?"
"He got his hair cut, I think"
"did he now, the little devil"