Freedom of Speech and Artistic Expression.

[Guest]

Taking them on is always going to be difficult, but that doesn't mean we stop. I'm inclined to think we should always confront them with their own tactics, although I am not advocating terrorism. Art, which is again under scrutiny (Mohammed Cartoons etc) is at least one non-violent way of addressing all of it. Common enough knowledge between you and me, but is it on the lips and minds of other artists and creative folk? I hope so.

* May 'possibly' be the victims of more cunning sources.
** New epidemics of disease / virii.

Art is hated by such people because it provokes thought that would otherwise be surpressed.

I think you were bang on earlier when you said that religion basically pandered to the uneducated and those who felt outcast from mainstream society.

The thing I find interesting is that everytime you bring up a given religions crimes (Christianities entry into europe on a wave of blood, for instance, or Islam's nasty underbelly) its always "ahh but it was just a few individuals, they werent <insert religious denomination here>". That imho is a copout. A religion is only as good as its followers, just as a person isn't defined by who they are, but by what they do

Yes indeed, it's a copout. Years of practice have left them with what I choose to call an 'embedded database of scapegoats' and fingers pointing every direction but their's. If it's pitched correctly it will always sell well and attract followers. Gods are a commodity. Nothing more.

I'm not sure I would quite agree with that last point but what I would rather say is that they are used by many of these groups as a commodity for sure.

To tease this out further and tie in what I've already said, I'd like to pick up on a smaller point you have made;

just as a person isn't defined by who they are, but by what they do

It's interesting how 'the arts' mimic reality. Any decent artist, journalist, musician or writer, will inevitably attract fanatics / followers. Are we in defiance of all things orderly? This both fascinates and frustrates me. Frequently.

I guess it depends on the artform and the subject matter...

[the_leander]

that was me heh

[Louis P. Burns aka Lugh]

that was me heh

Say three hail Mary's (not) and bung the kettle on

Taking them on is always going to be difficult, but that doesn't mean we stop. I'm inclined to think we should always confront them with their own tactics, although I am not advocating terrorism. Art, which is again under scrutiny (Mohammed Cartoons etc) is at least one non-violent way of addressing all of it. Common enough knowledge between you and me, but is it on the lips and minds of other artists and creative folk? I hope so.

* May 'possibly' be the victims of more cunning sources.
** New epidemics of disease / virii.

Art is hated by such people because it provokes thought that would otherwise be surpressed.

Indeed. Why do they bother though? The stress of it all must knock years off their lives.

Are artists and writers being cruel when they put the boot in? I personally think we can't kick the fuckers hard enough, but again wish to state, creatively and without violence. However, I accept fully that anger is a healthy emotion when expressed artforms.

I think you were bang on earlier when you said that religion basically pandered to the uneducated and those who felt outcast from mainstream society.

Those last seven words are priceless Alan. Are they a reference to most of the world's leaders and governments?

The thing I find interesting is that everytime you bring up a given religions crimes (Christianities entry into europe on a wave of blood, for instance, or Islam's nasty underbelly) its always "ahh but it was just a few individuals, they werent <insert religious denomination here>". That imho is a copout. A religion is only as good as its followers, just as a person isn't defined by who they are, but by what they do

Yes indeed, it's a copout. Years of practice have left them with what I choose to call an 'embedded database of scapegoats' and fingers pointing every direction but their's. If it's pitched correctly it will always sell well and attract followers. Gods are a commodity. Nothing more.

I'm not sure I would quite agree with that last point but what I would rather say is that they are used by many of these groups as a commodity for sure.

You're absolutely right. I stand corrected.

To tease this out further and tie in what I've already said, I'd like to pick up on a smaller point you have made;

just as a person isn't defined by who they are, but by what they do

It's interesting how 'the arts' mimic reality. Any decent artist, journalist, musician or writer, will inevitably attract fanatics / followers. Are we in defiance of all things orderly? This both fascinates and frustrates me. Frequently.

I guess it depends on the artform and the subject matter...

For exploration of both these points in your last quote I have coloured the fonts dark red in the first one, and green in the last... My reason for this is that I want to chinwag with you more on each.

depends on the artform

If someone is recognised to be working either professionally or voluntarily in the 'arts', either currently or in the past and for a good period of their lives one way or another. Then as practitioners of their skills and vocation, anything they state to be an artform they are working with. An example would be: If someone has worked and been known to work as a published writer, but then decide a dance or drama performance would be the best possible delivery mechanism for their current project / work in progress.

I'm probably being quite scant in my reply here but I've toked a few canes this evening and I'm very mellow, but all over the place.

subject matter...

For some creative people like; actors, artists, dancers, directors, editors, filmakers, journalists, producers or writers, to truly have an effect, they must address issues that grate on the nerves of the world. This has always been the case and has guided most of the rest of humanity, more effectively than any government or leadership system can or ever will.

Moral issues and legalities come into play at times either because an artform has exploited or slandered a third party or the content of the artform exploits the public's right to not be offended.

If the public and in this I also refer to political / religious fanatical groups and politicians, destroy or invade in any way / violate the artist's (reference to the above underlined) appreciative audience or their approved / paid for working environments, then legal action can be taken against them and charges of terrorism brought up where applicable.

An artform is airbourne.
A funny joke or good song can spread a lot of happiness to a large group of people, quicker than any mandate. The words can be learned by heart and by most people or improvised on / shared. When people have a laugh or a song on their lips, they invariably feel better. I've yet to see a leadership system or government have this effect. All they summon is fury from ost of the rest of the world.

[the_leander]

Taking them on is always going to be difficult, but that doesn't mean we stop. I'm inclined to think we should always confront them with their own tactics, although I am not advocating terrorism. Art, which is again under scrutiny (Mohammed Cartoons etc) is at least one non-violent way of addressing all of it. Common enough knowledge between you and me, but is it on the lips and minds of other artists and creative folk? I hope so.

* May 'possibly' be the victims of more cunning sources.
** New epidemics of disease / virii.

Art is hated by such people because it provokes thought that would otherwise be surpressed.

Indeed. Why do they bother though? The stress of it all must knock years off their lives.

Are artists and writers being cruel when they put the boot in? I personally think we can't kick the fuckers hard enough, but again wish to state, creatively and without violence. However, I accept fully that anger is a healthy emotion when expressed artforms.

I'm inclined to agree with you. As to the why... I write and draw because I have to, I can't explain it more then that...

I think you were bang on earlier when you said that religion basically pandered to the uneducated and those who felt outcast from mainstream society.

Those last seven words are priceless Alan. Are they a reference to most of the world's leaders and governments?

Actually I was thinking teenage lads, in poor areas...

Moral issues and legalities come into play at times either because an artform has exploited or slandered a third party or the content of the artform exploits the public's right to not be offended.

No one has the "right to not be offended". Quite frankly those who wish to ban things that upset them need to grow up. I would say that these sorts of people are the single most dangerous group overall in the western world.

If the public and in this I also refer to political / religious fanatical groups and politicians, destroy or invade in any way / violate the artist's (reference to the above underlined) appreciative audience or their approved / paid for working environments, then legal action can be taken against them and charges of terrorism brought up where applicable.

An artform is airborne.
A funny joke or good song can spread a lot of happiness to a large group of people, quicker than any mandate. The words can be learned by heart and by most people or improvised on / shared. When people have a laugh or a song on their lips, they invariably feel better. I've yet to see a leadership system or government have this effect. All they summon is fury from ost of the rest of the world.

Here here.

[joanne chapman]

I have met only two people in my life who, for reasons I don't understand, are truly religious people. One being a 'Jehovah's witness.

For good or bad, she has my full respect and always will do - even though I think she is misguided in her thinking.

She came knocking at my door in 1994 claiming to bring me 'good news'. At the time I had been discharged from hospital following an unexpected operation which saved my life. I was unable to go out for 13 weeks and was bored shitless and pretty fucked off.

I pulled her faith apart (in a polite way) and she took it all on the proverbial chin. She came back day after day. After several weeks she realised that she was never going to change my mind but she still came. I must have really fucked her off at times, even questioning why she thought her God was a male figure, when at the point of conception we all have only female genes.

About five years ago I attended her church at easter, just to let her know that despite our different opinions I respect her and admire her determination. I saw it meant a lot to her.

I was brought up Church of England and sent to a Catholic School. I had to fight most of my way through school because of this (being a ?proddy?dog). I spent two 1/2 years in a convent school and until I found the joy's of being a female I wanted to be a Nun, probably just to be accepted.

I never questioned how or why people had faith until then. We had years of church members coming to visit our home and I was fed bullshit.

At 14 my mum became bedbound with her disability and within a short period of time I felt the need to leave school and provide for myself to ease the burden. No fucker came near nor by and everyone knew I was working, cooking, cleaning etc and how ill my mum was, we knew nothing about any disability benefits back then.

I try not to mock religion but, my religion is my family and if when I die there is any spirit world, I will float around with my family forever not with strangers. No-one will ever tell me there is any god, unless they can prove it.

I do believe that unspent energy remains after death.

If God and Mohammed get married don't bother informing me unless there is gonna be a piss up.

[Louis P. Burns aka Lugh]

I have met only two people in my life who, for reasons I don't understand, are truly religious people. One being a 'Jehovah's witness.

For good or bad, she has my full respect and always will do - even though I think she is misguided in her thinking.

She came knocking at my door in 1994 claiming to bring me 'good news'. At the time I had been discharged from hospital following an unexpected operation which saved my life. I was unable to go out for 13 weeks and was bored shitless and pretty fucked off.

Well, you'd want a bit of good news after all that then. Wouldn't ya..?

I pulled her faith apart (in a polite way) and she took it all on the proverbial chin.

Where's that then?

She came back day after day.

Parasites..! They get in there, at the sick and needy..!

After several weeks she realised that she was never going to change my mind but she still came. I must have really fucked her off at times, even questioning why she thought her God was a male figure, when at the point of conception we all have only female genes.

I'm confused by this point. I choose to believe no gods exist. But, if they did, wouldn't they be all sexes to all humanity?

About five years ago I attended her church at easter, just to let her know that despite our different opinions I respect her and admire her determination. I saw it meant a lot to her.

Yeah, but why..? Could it be she's been totally disempowered by all the psycho-babble that is faith..? Head maybe done it by it..? Perhaps she really was glad to see a friend..?

I was brought up Church of England and sent to a Catholic School. I had to fight most of my way through school because of this (being a ?proddy?dog). I spent two 1/2 years in a convent school and until I found the joy's of being a female I wanted to be a Nun, probably just to be accepted.

I tried to find the joys of being a female but failed and became a Nun. I was never accepted. Mother Superior frequently tugged my beard and pinched my arse..! She made me wear crotchless PVC and licked her lips a lot...

I never questioned how or why people had faith until then. We had years of church members coming to visit our home and I was fed bullshit.

We got corned beef sandwiches...

I do believe that unspent energy remains after death.

Don't say it loudly. George 'n' Tony will tax it and drill us for essential resources..!

If God and Mohammed get married don't bother informing me unless there is gonna be a piss up.

It's off apparently. Someone said God got blootered on fine scotch and drew a cartoon of Mohammed with his lad out. Mohammed's crowd said this was normal practice for their deity at rehearsal weddings. God's granny smirked and sniggered at Mohammed's lad and the church got burned to the ground. Last I heard Vishnu was knobbin' Allah and God had her first lesbian encounter...

I'll never work religion out...

[Essexcowgirl]

Right then,

very quick note on this Essex girl's view of religeon. It's bollox. If less people spent their time fecking praying and wailing to some invisible diety they hold responsible for every fecking fuck up on earth and spent more time just being good and decent human 'animals' (yep I'm a true believer in the evolutionary theory - we're all just dumb mammals) then there'd be less war, bigotry and television evangalists. Quite honestly just the evangelists buggering off'd be enough for me to denounce religeon.

Fuck it... I'm off to beat the shite out of the local vicar whilst he's practising with the boys choir - religeon my fecking arse!

[joanne chapman]

Right then,

very quick note on this Essex girl's view of religeon. It's bollox. If less people spent their time fecking praying and wailing to some invisible diety they hold responsible for every fecking fuck up on earth and spent more time just being good and decent human 'animals' (yep I'm a true believer in the evolutionary theory - we're all just dumb mammals) then there'd be less war, bigotry and television evangalists. Quite honestly just the evangelists buggering off'd be enough for me to denounce religeon.

Fuck it... I'm off to beat the shite out of the local vicar whilst he's practising with the boys choir - religeon my fecking arse!

Is that vicar 'practising with the choir boys(!), or the boys choir'!

[Louis P. Burns aka Lugh]

I thought this was interesting. At last. Some descention and opposition to the Christian Extreme Right from and within America...

I also had the absolutely wonderful idea of changing the toothpaste tube that's gripped by a hand in the picture of Ted Haggard to a erect penis, and the caption (Ummm... God's Tastes Good) but alas, I'm hopeless with Photoshop...

Check this out:-

"What the disparate sects of this movement, known as Dominionism, share is an obsession with political power...Dominionists preach that Jesus has called them to build the kingdom of God in the here and now...America becomes, in this militant biblicism, an agent of God, and all political and intellectual opponents of America's Christian leaders are viewed, quite simply, as agents of Satan. Under Christian dominion, America will no longer be a sinful and fallen nation but one in which the Ten Commandments form the basis of our legal system, Creationism and "Christian values" form the basis of our education system, and the media and the government proclaim the Good News to one and all...the federal government will be reduced to the protection of property rights and "homeland" security. Some Dominionists would further require all citizens to pay "tithes" to church organizations empowered by the government to run our social-welfare agencies, and a number of influential figures advocate the death penalty for a host of "moral crimes", including apostasy, blasphemy, sodomy, and witchcraft. The only legitimate voices in this state will be Christian. All others will be silenced."

Ah yes, democracy the evangelical way. How would this make us any better than the Islamic republics in the Middle East they preach against continually?

Wouldn't it be great if Ted Haggard got shot repeatedly in the forehead and at point blank range..? Fucker reminds me of Patrick Swayze's character in Donnie Darko..! He's the spitting image and calibre of him.

[joanne chapman]

If you do nothing else today, pour yourself some bourbon, take a sit-down and read this article

Sorry, I couldn't read past this sentence.

I must obey....

[Louis P. Burns aka Lugh]

If you do nothing else today, pour yourself some bourbon, take a sit-down and read this article

Sorry, I couldn't read past this sentence.

I must obey....

ahhahahahahaa...

Neither could I lol... Well, for a bit anyway, then I did. The site is opposed to wankers like Haggard.

I just think it's refreshing that there are voices in America taking a stand against him... Give it a few years and the Christians will have crosses on their back and be seen to say; "Resistence Is Futile" while burning anything non-christian.

Scum. That's what they are... Scum..!

Nothing a load of semtex wouldn't cure though...

[joanne chapman]

If you do nothing else today, pour yourself some bourbon, take a sit-down and read this article

Sorry, I couldn't read past this sentence.

I must obey....

ahhahahahahaa...

Neither could I lol... Well, for a bit anyway, then I did. The site is opposed to wankers like Haggard.

I just think it's refreshing that there are voices in America taking a stand against him... Give it a few years and the Christians will have crosses on their back and be seen to say; "Resistence Is Futile" while burning
anything non-christian.

Scum. That's what they are... Scum..!

Nothing a load of semtex wouldn't cure though...

Get that man a box for speakers corner.

Pour yourself another, ye crafty fecker!

[Louis P. Burns aka Lugh]

Get that man a box for speakers corner.

Pour yourself another, ye crafty fecker!

Ooooh ta.



Don't mind if I do...

[joanne chapman]

Get that man a box for speakers corner.

Pour yourself another, ye crafty fecker!

Ooooh ta.



Don't mind if I do...

That's a small one Lugh.

All churches should be turned into party houses. All the people that want to pray can do so in the mornings when all the pissheads are in bed. They can pray for help in cleaning up.Most av got reasonable sound systems and stone or wood floors, making it easier to clear up.

And.. they all have car parks, unlike all the new pubs (old banks and police stations, like we have around here).

Lugh, you can put your new toothpaste tubes in the toilets.

[Louis P. Burns aka Lugh]

That's a small one Lugh.

I don't like to brag

All churches should be turned into party houses. All the people that want to pray can do so in the mornings when all the pissheads are in bed. They can pray for help in cleaning up.Most av got reasonable sound systems and stone or wood floors, making it easier to clear up.

And.. they all have car parks, unlike all the new pubs (old banks and police stations, like we have around here).

So, 'God Raves' it is then..?

HaPpYdAzE

Actually. God can do the cleaning up... We'll be too busy sobering up..!

Lugh, you can put your new toothpaste tubes in the toilets.

Odd way to keep enamel white. But, you're clearly an expert... I'll do it at once...