Freedom of Speech and Artistic Expression.

[Louis P. Burns aka Lugh]

We're living in a very mixed up world. The wrong people forever in charge. Everyone at each other's throats over silly issues that could probably be sorted out over a few pints and spliffs with a good soundtrack on to mellow the mood.

Take this situation with the offensive pictures of Mohammed. An artist draws some cartoons of the Muslim deity and all hell breaks loose. People murdered, embassies raised to the ground, arrests, deportations and trade sanctions. What has happened to freedom of speech and artistic expression?

I grew up and live in Northern Ireland. I'm from mixed parentage (Catholic / Protestant) but I identify as atheist. This is because I view religion as a sickness, a collective psychosis and mass hysteria. Watching the news only confirms this for me. I hold onto the belief that religion is singularly responsible for all of the retarded hatred that has dogged my country for centuries.

Most people living in dire circumstance, with very little employment opportunities will, if either uneducated or just plain ignorant, turn back to tribalism as a means of asserting themselves. Religion caters for this perfectly every time...

The poll at the top of this thread is humour based, but there is a serious side to all of this. I'd love to read other member's viewpoints on this theme. Please feel free to swear where applicable and if necessary. I know I fuckin' do. Remember, this is an 18+ online environment for artistic and creative people. This topic affects us all.

Cheers.

[the_leander]

I once had this discussion with Deacon, it basically went with him taking your position. Whereas I put forward the view that if you removed religion from the equation, the nutbars would simply find something else as a means to control people.

I stand by that view.

I have my own beliefs, I just try not to let them show too often, I also don't like people pushing their beliefs on others, I always remember how I felt when talking to an american some years back he casually dropped in "do you believe in God?" into the conversation, no warning, and nothing to do with what we were discussing. It felt really unpleasant, not to mention cheep at how that was introduced. I wouldn't want to make others feel that way. I haven't talked to that bloke since...

The problem basically boils down to a giant game of "I'm right, and everyone else is wrong." Only it costs people their lives.

Ultamately faith, like masterbation, should be done in private. It doesn't matter the religion for me, but public shows of faith are just that - a show. "Look how rightious I am" imho.

All I will ever say about my own beliefs is that they are right for me. YMMV.

[Louis P. Burns aka Lugh]

I once had this discussion with Deacon, it basically went with him taking your position. Whereas I put forward the view that if you removed religion from the equation, the nutbars would simply find something else as a means to control people.

I stand by that view.

And I salute you for it Alan.

It really is a game of elitism. A few will always be in charge of everyone else's destiny and they will serve this delusion to the masses in whatever form most intimidates at the time. Spin enough fairytales about a god and the vast majority of people will blindly accept because of some underlying fear that control will come knocking on their door. Better to put up with it than confront it.

Are the majority of people in the world bone idle? Is that it? Are they too frightened, lazy or stupid to take a stand and take back control?

All down through history religion has been used as a valid reason for going to war and a catalyst for varied hatreds. Seems fuckin' odd that something that talks of universal love and a higher power has so many sub divisions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc) and that humanity is ripping itself apart because of it.

Not only that, but people who seek some sort of spiritual identity (Wicca for example) other than the accepted and mainstream religions are persecuted. Don't worry. I'm not a Druid or Wiccan. I'm not gonna light a big fire in here, chant incantations or dance around naked. We're looking to attract members and that would most definitely keep them away .

I have my own beliefs, I just try not to let them show too often, I also don't like people pushing their beliefs on others, I always remember how I felt when talking to an american some years back he casually dropped in "do you believe in God?" into the conversation, no warning, and nothing to do with what we were discussing. It felt really unpleasant, not to mention cheep at how that was introduced. I wouldn't want to make others feel that way. I haven't talked to that bloke since...

Quite right. What a bastard eh? In an ideal world free of dogma, you could've spiked the fucker with naturally occuring entheogens and begun whispering about how beautiful the trees were while stearing him towards fast-flowing traffic (see big fluffy asterisk '*' below)...

The problem basically boils down to a giant game of "I'm right, and everyone else is wrong." Only it costs people their lives

And voters their tax payments to arm, clothe, feed and train soldiers to defend it on every battlefield. This same money pays for their pointless funerals too..!

Ultamately faith, like masterbation, should be done in private.

Agreed. They're all wanking their lives away.

Maybe if we start a few rumours on this SENSITIZE © thread like; 'Playing with your gods in public will make you go blind' or 'Stop headbutting the Wailing Wall! 'Allah has a 'Noise Pollution Order' against you..!', we might bring some wisdom about.

Do other members of SENSITIZE © have any catchy slogans we can throw around?

Don't worry about upsetting orthodox or religeous mindsets. This is a SENSITIZE © approved exercise and part of what artists and writers do for the world.

It doesn't matter the religion for me, but public shows of faith are just that - a show. "Look how rightious I am" imho.

All I will ever say about my own beliefs is that they are right for me.

Same here mate

YMMV.

I could pretend I know what that means but choose to believe you're just crunching some crisps while typing.

*

[the_leander]

I once had this discussion with Deacon, it basically went with him taking your position. Whereas I put forward the view that if you removed religion from the equation, the nutbars would simply find something else as a means to control people.

I stand by that view.

And I salute you for it Alan.

It really is a game of elitism. A few will always be in charge of everyone else's destiny and they will serve this delusion to the masses in whatever form most intimidates at the time. Spin enough fairytales about a god and the vast majority of people will blindly accept because of some underlying fear that control will come knocking on their door. Better to put up with it than confront it.

Are the majority of people in the world bone idle? Is that it? Are they too frightened, lazy or stupid to take a stand and take back control?

In truth, I suspect its more a matter of them not realising that they can take control back. You don't take power, you are given it, either by vote, through fear (of you or the unknown) or by deception.

All down through history religion has been used as a valid reason for going to war and a catalyst for varied hatreds. Seems fuckin' odd that something that talks of universal love and a higher power has so many sub divisions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc) and that humanity is ripping itself apart because of it.

The thing I find interesting is that everytime you bring up a given religions crimes (Christianities entry into europe on a wave of blood, for instance, or Islam's nasty underbelly) its always "ahh but it was just a few individuals, they werent <insert religious denomination here>". That imho is a copout. A religion is only as good as its followers, just as a person isn't defined by who they are, but by what they do.

Not only that, but people who seek some sort of spiritual identity (Wicca for example) other than the accepted and mainstream religions are persecuted. Don't worry. I'm not a Druid or Wiccan. I'm not gonna light a big fire in here, chant incantations or dance around naked. We're looking to attract members and that would most definitely keep them away .

Bwahahaha, I know well what you're on about here though.

I am, and you'll still not catch me going skyclad any time soon, its fucking cold!

The problem basically boils down to a giant game of "I'm right, and everyone else is wrong." Only it costs people their lives

And voters their tax payments to arm, clothe, feed and train soldiers to defend it on every battlefield. This same money pays for their pointless funerals too..!

Indeed.

Ultamately faith, like masterbation, should be done in private.

Agreed. They're all wanking their lives away.

Maybe if we start a few rumours on this SENSITIZE © thread like; 'Playing with your gods in public will make you go blind' or 'Stop headbutting the Wailing Wall! 'Allah has a 'Noise Pollution Order' against you..!', we might bring some wisdom about.

Do other members of SENSITIZE © have any catchy slogans we can throw around?

Don't worry about upsetting orthodox or religeous mindsets. This is a SENSITIZE © approved exercise and part of what artists and writers do for the world.

It doesn't matter the religion for me, but public shows of faith are just that - a show. "Look how rightious I am" imho.

All I will ever say about my own beliefs is that they are right for me.

Same here mate

YMMV.

I could pretend I know what that means but choose to believe you're just crunching some crisps while typing.

*

YMMV - Your Mileage May Vary

[Louis P. Burns aka Lugh]

In truth, I suspect its more a matter of them not realising that they can take control back. You don't take power, you are given it, either by vote, through fear (of you or the unknown) or by deception.

I find your point on deception interesting. This is so very true and it's in every facet of power (like a sale's pitch), from the; armed drug dealers on the streets'. The governments of the world + their militia / police. Certain media sources*, right up to 'the dogmatic religeous ideologies of varying collective faiths and beyond'. The implied threats of further crime if defied from either of the first two. Or blaring warnings on the telly about threats to our nation/nations from places / terrorist organisations we've never heard of before. Annnd; almost everyone's favourite; plagues** from a god, are all clear examples.

Taking them on is always going to be difficult, but that doesn't mean we stop. I'm inclined to think we should always confront them with their own tactics, although I am not advocating terrorism. Art, which is again under scrutiny (Mohammed Cartoons etc) is at least one non-violent way of addressing all of it. Common enough knowledge between you and me, but is it on the lips and minds of other artists and creative folk? I hope so.

* May 'possibly' be the victims of more cunning sources.
** New epidemics of disease / virii.

The thing I find interesting is that everytime you bring up a given religions crimes (Christianities entry into europe on a wave of blood, for instance, or Islam's nasty underbelly) its always "ahh but it was just a few individuals, they werent <insert religious denomination here>". That imho is a copout. A religion is only as good as its followers, just as a person isn't defined by who they are, but by what they do

Yes indeed, it's a copout. Years of practice have left them with what I choose to call an 'embedded database of scapegoats' and fingers pointing every direction but their's. If it's pitched correctly it will always sell well and attract followers. Gods are a commodity. Nothing more.

To tease this out further and tie in what I've already said, I'd like to pick up on a smaller point you have made;

just as a person isn't defined by who they are, but by what they do

It's interesting how 'the arts' mimic reality. Any decent artist, journalist, musician or writer, will inevitably attract fanatics / followers. Are we in defiance of all things orderly? This both fascinates and frustrates me. Frequently.

I am, and you'll still not catch me going skyclad any time soon, its fucking cold!

Tell me about it. Ye could 'hang beef' here for fuck's sake..!

I was gonna put on a balaclava, big chunky combat jacket and gloves to keep warm. Then a flashback to harder times when the army and cops used to shoot people here in Northern Ireland who dressed like this, made me decide against it..!

[Guest]

Taking them on is always going to be difficult, but that doesn't mean we stop. I'm inclined to think we should always confront them with their own tactics, although I am not advocating terrorism. Art, which is again under scrutiny (Mohammed Cartoons etc) is at least one non-violent way of addressing all of it. Common enough knowledge between you and me, but is it on the lips and minds of other artists and creative folk? I hope so.

* May 'possibly' be the victims of more cunning sources.
** New epidemics of disease / virii.

Art is hated by such people because it provokes thought that would otherwise be surpressed.

I think you were bang on earlier when you said that religion basically pandered to the uneducated and those who felt outcast from mainstream society.

The thing I find interesting is that everytime you bring up a given religions crimes (Christianities entry into europe on a wave of blood, for instance, or Islam's nasty underbelly) its always "ahh but it was just a few individuals, they werent <insert religious denomination here>". That imho is a copout. A religion is only as good as its followers, just as a person isn't defined by who they are, but by what they do

Yes indeed, it's a copout. Years of practice have left them with what I choose to call an 'embedded database of scapegoats' and fingers pointing every direction but their's. If it's pitched correctly it will always sell well and attract followers. Gods are a commodity. Nothing more.

I'm not sure I would quite agree with that last point but what I would rather say is that they are used by many of these groups as a commodity for sure.

To tease this out further and tie in what I've already said, I'd like to pick up on a smaller point you have made;

just as a person isn't defined by who they are, but by what they do

It's interesting how 'the arts' mimic reality. Any decent artist, journalist, musician or writer, will inevitably attract fanatics / followers. Are we in defiance of all things orderly? This both fascinates and frustrates me. Frequently.

I guess it depends on the artform and the subject matter...

[the_leander]

that was me heh

[Louis P. Burns aka Lugh]

that was me heh

Say three hail Mary's (not) and bung the kettle on

Taking them on is always going to be difficult, but that doesn't mean we stop. I'm inclined to think we should always confront them with their own tactics, although I am not advocating terrorism. Art, which is again under scrutiny (Mohammed Cartoons etc) is at least one non-violent way of addressing all of it. Common enough knowledge between you and me, but is it on the lips and minds of other artists and creative folk? I hope so.

* May 'possibly' be the victims of more cunning sources.
** New epidemics of disease / virii.

Art is hated by such people because it provokes thought that would otherwise be surpressed.

Indeed. Why do they bother though? The stress of it all must knock years off their lives.

Are artists and writers being cruel when they put the boot in? I personally think we can't kick the fuckers hard enough, but again wish to state, creatively and without violence. However, I accept fully that anger is a healthy emotion when expressed artforms.

I think you were bang on earlier when you said that religion basically pandered to the uneducated and those who felt outcast from mainstream society.

Those last seven words are priceless Alan. Are they a reference to most of the world's leaders and governments?

The thing I find interesting is that everytime you bring up a given religions crimes (Christianities entry into europe on a wave of blood, for instance, or Islam's nasty underbelly) its always "ahh but it was just a few individuals, they werent <insert religious denomination here>". That imho is a copout. A religion is only as good as its followers, just as a person isn't defined by who they are, but by what they do

Yes indeed, it's a copout. Years of practice have left them with what I choose to call an 'embedded database of scapegoats' and fingers pointing every direction but their's. If it's pitched correctly it will always sell well and attract followers. Gods are a commodity. Nothing more.

I'm not sure I would quite agree with that last point but what I would rather say is that they are used by many of these groups as a commodity for sure.

You're absolutely right. I stand corrected.

To tease this out further and tie in what I've already said, I'd like to pick up on a smaller point you have made;

just as a person isn't defined by who they are, but by what they do

It's interesting how 'the arts' mimic reality. Any decent artist, journalist, musician or writer, will inevitably attract fanatics / followers. Are we in defiance of all things orderly? This both fascinates and frustrates me. Frequently.

I guess it depends on the artform and the subject matter...

For exploration of both these points in your last quote I have coloured the fonts dark red in the first one, and green in the last... My reason for this is that I want to chinwag with you more on each.

depends on the artform

If someone is recognised to be working either professionally or voluntarily in the 'arts', either currently or in the past and for a good period of their lives one way or another. Then as practitioners of their skills and vocation, anything they state to be an artform they are working with. An example would be: If someone has worked and been known to work as a published writer, but then decide a dance or drama performance would be the best possible delivery mechanism for their current project / work in progress.

I'm probably being quite scant in my reply here but I've toked a few canes this evening and I'm very mellow, but all over the place.

subject matter...

For some creative people like; actors, artists, dancers, directors, editors, filmakers, journalists, producers or writers, to truly have an effect, they must address issues that grate on the nerves of the world. This has always been the case and has guided most of the rest of humanity, more effectively than any government or leadership system can or ever will.

Moral issues and legalities come into play at times either because an artform has exploited or slandered a third party or the content of the artform exploits the public's right to not be offended.

If the public and in this I also refer to political / religious fanatical groups and politicians, destroy or invade in any way / violate the artist's (reference to the above underlined) appreciative audience or their approved / paid for working environments, then legal action can be taken against them and charges of terrorism brought up where applicable.

An artform is airbourne.
A funny joke or good song can spread a lot of happiness to a large group of people, quicker than any mandate. The words can be learned by heart and by most people or improvised on / shared. When people have a laugh or a song on their lips, they invariably feel better. I've yet to see a leadership system or government have this effect. All they summon is fury from ost of the rest of the world.

[the_leander]

Taking them on is always going to be difficult, but that doesn't mean we stop. I'm inclined to think we should always confront them with their own tactics, although I am not advocating terrorism. Art, which is again under scrutiny (Mohammed Cartoons etc) is at least one non-violent way of addressing all of it. Common enough knowledge between you and me, but is it on the lips and minds of other artists and creative folk? I hope so.

* May 'possibly' be the victims of more cunning sources.
** New epidemics of disease / virii.

Art is hated by such people because it provokes thought that would otherwise be surpressed.

Indeed. Why do they bother though? The stress of it all must knock years off their lives.

Are artists and writers being cruel when they put the boot in? I personally think we can't kick the fuckers hard enough, but again wish to state, creatively and without violence. However, I accept fully that anger is a healthy emotion when expressed artforms.

I'm inclined to agree with you. As to the why... I write and draw because I have to, I can't explain it more then that...

I think you were bang on earlier when you said that religion basically pandered to the uneducated and those who felt outcast from mainstream society.

Those last seven words are priceless Alan. Are they a reference to most of the world's leaders and governments?

Actually I was thinking teenage lads, in poor areas...

Moral issues and legalities come into play at times either because an artform has exploited or slandered a third party or the content of the artform exploits the public's right to not be offended.

No one has the "right to not be offended". Quite frankly those who wish to ban things that upset them need to grow up. I would say that these sorts of people are the single most dangerous group overall in the western world.

If the public and in this I also refer to political / religious fanatical groups and politicians, destroy or invade in any way / violate the artist's (reference to the above underlined) appreciative audience or their approved / paid for working environments, then legal action can be taken against them and charges of terrorism brought up where applicable.

An artform is airborne.
A funny joke or good song can spread a lot of happiness to a large group of people, quicker than any mandate. The words can be learned by heart and by most people or improvised on / shared. When people have a laugh or a song on their lips, they invariably feel better. I've yet to see a leadership system or government have this effect. All they summon is fury from ost of the rest of the world.

Here here.

[joanne chapman]

I have met only two people in my life who, for reasons I don't understand, are truly religious people. One being a 'Jehovah's witness.

For good or bad, she has my full respect and always will do - even though I think she is misguided in her thinking.

She came knocking at my door in 1994 claiming to bring me 'good news'. At the time I had been discharged from hospital following an unexpected operation which saved my life. I was unable to go out for 13 weeks and was bored shitless and pretty fucked off.

I pulled her faith apart (in a polite way) and she took it all on the proverbial chin. She came back day after day. After several weeks she realised that she was never going to change my mind but she still came. I must have really fucked her off at times, even questioning why she thought her God was a male figure, when at the point of conception we all have only female genes.

About five years ago I attended her church at easter, just to let her know that despite our different opinions I respect her and admire her determination. I saw it meant a lot to her.

I was brought up Church of England and sent to a Catholic School. I had to fight most of my way through school because of this (being a ?proddy?dog). I spent two 1/2 years in a convent school and until I found the joy's of being a female I wanted to be a Nun, probably just to be accepted.

I never questioned how or why people had faith until then. We had years of church members coming to visit our home and I was fed bullshit.

At 14 my mum became bedbound with her disability and within a short period of time I felt the need to leave school and provide for myself to ease the burden. No fucker came near nor by and everyone knew I was working, cooking, cleaning etc and how ill my mum was, we knew nothing about any disability benefits back then.

I try not to mock religion but, my religion is my family and if when I die there is any spirit world, I will float around with my family forever not with strangers. No-one will ever tell me there is any god, unless they can prove it.

I do believe that unspent energy remains after death.

If God and Mohammed get married don't bother informing me unless there is gonna be a piss up.

[Louis P. Burns aka Lugh]

I have met only two people in my life who, for reasons I don't understand, are truly religious people. One being a 'Jehovah's witness.

For good or bad, she has my full respect and always will do - even though I think she is misguided in her thinking.

She came knocking at my door in 1994 claiming to bring me 'good news'. At the time I had been discharged from hospital following an unexpected operation which saved my life. I was unable to go out for 13 weeks and was bored shitless and pretty fucked off.

Well, you'd want a bit of good news after all that then. Wouldn't ya..?

I pulled her faith apart (in a polite way) and she took it all on the proverbial chin.

Where's that then?

She came back day after day.

Parasites..! They get in there, at the sick and needy..!

After several weeks she realised that she was never going to change my mind but she still came. I must have really fucked her off at times, even questioning why she thought her God was a male figure, when at the point of conception we all have only female genes.

I'm confused by this point. I choose to believe no gods exist. But, if they did, wouldn't they be all sexes to all humanity?

About five years ago I attended her church at easter, just to let her know that despite our different opinions I respect her and admire her determination. I saw it meant a lot to her.

Yeah, but why..? Could it be she's been totally disempowered by all the psycho-babble that is faith..? Head maybe done it by it..? Perhaps she really was glad to see a friend..?

I was brought up Church of England and sent to a Catholic School. I had to fight most of my way through school because of this (being a ?proddy?dog). I spent two 1/2 years in a convent school and until I found the joy's of being a female I wanted to be a Nun, probably just to be accepted.

I tried to find the joys of being a female but failed and became a Nun. I was never accepted. Mother Superior frequently tugged my beard and pinched my arse..! She made me wear crotchless PVC and licked her lips a lot...

I never questioned how or why people had faith until then. We had years of church members coming to visit our home and I was fed bullshit.

We got corned beef sandwiches...

I do believe that unspent energy remains after death.

Don't say it loudly. George 'n' Tony will tax it and drill us for essential resources..!

If God and Mohammed get married don't bother informing me unless there is gonna be a piss up.

It's off apparently. Someone said God got blootered on fine scotch and drew a cartoon of Mohammed with his lad out. Mohammed's crowd said this was normal practice for their deity at rehearsal weddings. God's granny smirked and sniggered at Mohammed's lad and the church got burned to the ground. Last I heard Vishnu was knobbin' Allah and God had her first lesbian encounter...

I'll never work religion out...

[Essexcowgirl]

Right then,

very quick note on this Essex girl's view of religeon. It's bollox. If less people spent their time fecking praying and wailing to some invisible diety they hold responsible for every fecking fuck up on earth and spent more time just being good and decent human 'animals' (yep I'm a true believer in the evolutionary theory - we're all just dumb mammals) then there'd be less war, bigotry and television evangalists. Quite honestly just the evangelists buggering off'd be enough for me to denounce religeon.

Fuck it... I'm off to beat the shite out of the local vicar whilst he's practising with the boys choir - religeon my fecking arse!

[joanne chapman]

Right then,

very quick note on this Essex girl's view of religeon. It's bollox. If less people spent their time fecking praying and wailing to some invisible diety they hold responsible for every fecking fuck up on earth and spent more time just being good and decent human 'animals' (yep I'm a true believer in the evolutionary theory - we're all just dumb mammals) then there'd be less war, bigotry and television evangalists. Quite honestly just the evangelists buggering off'd be enough for me to denounce religeon.

Fuck it... I'm off to beat the shite out of the local vicar whilst he's practising with the boys choir - religeon my fecking arse!

Is that vicar 'practising with the choir boys(!), or the boys choir'!

[Louis P. Burns aka Lugh]

I thought this was interesting. At last. Some descention and opposition to the Christian Extreme Right from and within America...

I also had the absolutely wonderful idea of changing the toothpaste tube that's gripped by a hand in the picture of Ted Haggard to a erect penis, and the caption (Ummm... God's Tastes Good) but alas, I'm hopeless with Photoshop...

Check this out:-

"What the disparate sects of this movement, known as Dominionism, share is an obsession with political power...Dominionists preach that Jesus has called them to build the kingdom of God in the here and now...America becomes, in this militant biblicism, an agent of God, and all political and intellectual opponents of America's Christian leaders are viewed, quite simply, as agents of Satan. Under Christian dominion, America will no longer be a sinful and fallen nation but one in which the Ten Commandments form the basis of our legal system, Creationism and "Christian values" form the basis of our education system, and the media and the government proclaim the Good News to one and all...the federal government will be reduced to the protection of property rights and "homeland" security. Some Dominionists would further require all citizens to pay "tithes" to church organizations empowered by the government to run our social-welfare agencies, and a number of influential figures advocate the death penalty for a host of "moral crimes", including apostasy, blasphemy, sodomy, and witchcraft. The only legitimate voices in this state will be Christian. All others will be silenced."

Ah yes, democracy the evangelical way. How would this make us any better than the Islamic republics in the Middle East they preach against continually?

Wouldn't it be great if Ted Haggard got shot repeatedly in the forehead and at point blank range..? Fucker reminds me of Patrick Swayze's character in Donnie Darko..! He's the spitting image and calibre of him.

[joanne chapman]

If you do nothing else today, pour yourself some bourbon, take a sit-down and read this article

Sorry, I couldn't read past this sentence.

I must obey....